Video: The COVID-19 Pandemic: Pretext for Launching A Global Economic and Social Crisis. Michel Chossudovsky and Ivaylo Grouev
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“We are at the crossroads of one of the most serious crises in world history. We are living history, yet our understanding of the sequence of events since January 2020 has been blurred.
Worldwide, people have been misled both by their governments and the media as to the causes and devastating consequences of the COVID-19 “pandemic”.
The unspoken truth is that the novel coronavirus provides a pretext and a justification to powerful financial interests and corrupt politicians to precipitate the entire World into a spiral of mass unemployment, bankruptcy, extreme poverty and despair.
More than 7 billion people worldwide are directly or indirectly affected by the corona crisis.
The COVID-19 public health “emergency” under WHO auspices was presented to public opinion as a means (“solution”) to containing the “killer virus”.
If the public had been informed and reassured that COVID is (according to the WHO definition) “similar to seasonal influenza”, the fear campaign would have fallen flat. The lockdown and closure of the national economy would have been rejected outright.”
Prof. Michel Chossudovsky, Excerpt, E-Book on the Worldwide Corona Crisis. Highlights
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Video: Michel Chossudovsky Interviewed by Prof. Ivaylo Grouev. EuroTV Media, Bulgaria
Video is from EUROTV Media
Transcript of the interview
Prof. Ivaylo Grouev: It is my great pleasure to have professor Chossudovsky, who agreed to meet at his wonderful home and to discuss something which we describe as global order or rather “global disorder” or as I put it a few months in one of my publications – hysteria before multipolarity. So, I would like to start if you don’t mind with one of your best-selling books “Globalization of poverty” which became sort of bible for my course in globalization. Essentially you are responsible for 10,000 to 12,000 students to read your book and write you a book review. I remember vividly one chapter from your book “Policing States Through Loan Conditionalities”. In this context I would like to ask if you believe that this event which we had two years ago (Covid 19) is a continuation of the same policy of structurally adjustable programs?”.
Prof. Michel Chossudovsky: Well, let me say I am delighted to have the opportunity of this dialogue on the important subject, namely the crisis, which is affecting the world, in fact, this Corona crisis but I think the question you asked is that in many regards what is happening today, is part of a historical process and I wrote that book about more than 10 years ago.
Iv.Grouev: 2001 actually.
Chossudovsky: Well, actually the first edition came out in 1997 the first and there was a second edition in 2001, but the thing is you mentioned the issue of conditionality now the ad hoc conditionalities which were imposed on countries as part of a neoliberal agenda that meant IMF missions would go into the countries negotiate, come up with an agreement and they would impose what was called strong economic medicine and what we are witnessing is a crisis which mistakenly identified as a public health crisis. It is not a public health crisis, the crisis creates a public health crisis, but if we look at the logic and these economists have failed to understand it. Is that on March 11, 2020, there were instructions via the World Health Organization to 193 member states of the United Nations to literally” close” their economy. Now of course it did not happen exactly in one way, it was applied in different ways in different countries, but the main principle of that was one the confinement of the labor force on health grounds, in other words to set so-called to save lives which it did not save lives you can find the labor force and you instruct the various entities of various national economies to deal. Well, in some cases it is close down but with limitations but when you apply these measures at a global level inevitably what you have engineered is the most serious economic, social, and political and world history.
Iv.Grouev: Okay in this context I would like to add something, you mentioned 193 countries, I think it were actually 192 countries, there was one country which did not follow that instruction. It was a relatively small European country, called Belarus. Now my question, I want to reiterate my previous points: “Do you believe that with the IMF and World Bank (you’ve been quite amazingly describing in your book in the 1980’s and 1990’s these supra national agencies like IMF and World Bank) in this case, in fact are bypassing the elected national governments therefore, we are entering to unshattered territory of the post Westphalia nation-state system.
Chossudovsky: Well, I mean the procedure at the decision-making level is very complex for an entity such as WHO which incidentally is controlled by financial interests, and it is in large part private, it is not strictly an intergovernmental organization, but the instructions came from the financial establishment and they used the Covid 19 as a pretext. There were 44,000 so-called positives cases worldwide out of China, for population of 6.4 billion people outside China. There were several stages: there was the freezing of air travel which came immediately on January 31st, 2020, when President Trump froze travel with China but that led to subsequent stages where air travel was destabilized and transport was destabilized and then you had in the month of February 2020 a major financial crisis which was justified with something of the other of 1,076 Covid positive cases, and that was when the director general of WHO, announced the pandemic and he says situation is very, very serious, we have to control it. The windows are closing and so on and of course that same day the stock markets collapsed. Now he has 1,076 cases out of China!
Iv. Grouev: To reiterate my point Michel, now we are in a kind of really very unshattered territory because essentially national governments are becoming much less powerful in terms of being able to maintain social cohesion, they are no longer responsible for public health strategies Do you believe that just like at the beginning of this conversation regarding your book “Globalization of Poverty”, are these structural adjustment programs affecting the capacity of national governments to actually maintain political order?
Chossudovsky: Well, what I think is unfolding, is that this decision to close down more than 190 countries, of course with some exceptions, was a decision which was bypassing the nation-state was taken at the upper echelons of the financial establishment. It meant that, they had to have control over decision-makers, in other words, politicians, health officials at different levels in these 190 countries. It’s a very complex decision-making process but essentially, you’re right that the leaders of the nation-states have been bypassed and the shots are being called by very powerful interests under the guise of the World Health Organization. Now it is very clear that there was absolutely no justification with a view to saving lives when those measures were implemented and unfortunately there is not a single economist that I know which has analyzed the relationship between the Covid 19 crisis and economic variables and economic financial variables. The consensus among economists as well as social scientists is to say that it is the virus that contributed to economies chaos and financial meltdown when in fact was a very carefully engineered process. The virus does not affect economic variables and there is no invisible hand but economists have a tendency to look at market mechanisms, they do not understand necessarily that those markets are manipulated, and this was a means to manipulate market worldwide.
Iv.Grouev: This is exactly what happened in 2008 – without any “invisible hand” of the market that was a very “visible hand” coming from Wall Street with the creations of these exotic CDOS which created an incredible economic chaos in 2008. I believe 22 trillion dollars of savings disappeared and we had a financial crash. Close to 40 million people lost their jobs, so that was the manipulation of the financial markets, but the solution of the problem, if you remember, was to pump money into the largest financial institutions – the largest banks. The public debt that exploded back in 2008 is nothing comparable to what happened in 2020. Now public debt of the United States is 30 trillion dollars! When I started teaching many years ago, I was concerned about the (US) public debt and back then it was something like 5 or 6 trillion dollars. According to the US debt clock and IMF forecast in less than 7 years the public debt of the United States is going to be 89 trillion dollars which is an astonishing number and the debt/GDP ratio is going to be close to 300 percent. I am not an economist but if I recall correctly if you get 130 -140 percent debt to GDP then basically you have a failed state, you are bankrupt….
Chossudovsky: Well, I think you are right if we compare this situation to 2008 or if we compare it to previous economic crisis going back to 1929, this is by far the most serious economic crisis because it’s also hitting the real sector of the economy and it is worldwide. In one fell swoop on one day instructions are given and it is a form of interference and it’s an act of economic warfare. Now we can analyze who are the architects behind it and we can see the process of enrichment which has occurred because essentially you raise the issue of the debt. Well, the debt is also the consequence of these measures because in a national economy where there is literally a paralysis of basic economies activities, trade, agriculture industry, what happened to the fiscal structure of the states, the government are not getting any tax revenues. There is paralysis and they’re dependent on particularly developing countries, they are dependent on external foreign creditors who come in and also finance the handouts; now I think as far as the airlines are concerned the airlines are bankrupt.
Iv.Grouev: But the problem is that if you don’t have the revenues and obviously because of the latest crisis the middle class not only the United States (because essentially this is the discussion about the global hegemon here), but in European Union, in all OECD’s countries, the middle class has been decimated. So how these national governments continue to provide financing to their social security and Medicare …I don’t know. I don’t want to sound alarmist but there are some discussions about legalizing Euthanasia that was in France, and also here in Canada. If you cannot afford (your) medical bills and if you don’t have, if I quote correctly Trudeau’s government if you can’t have a” decent lifestyle”, I don’t know what he exactly means by ”decent lifestyle”, then you may consider actually euthanasia. How you going to respond to it.
Chossudovsky: Listen, well first when I started looking at these impacts of these policies, right from the outset and I can say that first, there has been a massive concentration of wealth, there’s been creation of mass unemployment and marginalization of the labor force. Of course, this has had an impact on mental health, in some countries we have seen the emergence of famines they are well documented even beyond famines because the confinement of the labor force in some countries let’s take the case of India where a large sector of the urban population is homeless, they come in from the villages they work and …
Iv.Grouev: If I am not mistaken according to the United nations, 2.5 billion people are living in bidonvilles.
Chossudovsky: Precisely the (bidonvilles) are still in some cases their homes. There was a segment in India, there’s a segment of the population and the seasonal workers, what did the Indian government order them to do – he said to go back to their villages. Now they never reached their villages which were several thousand kilometers away and they died, on the road for they had no money. Now these are the kind of realities which people, which journalists do not want to talk about. We had reports from the FAO that famine hit many countries again from official UN sources, and I can say from my own analysis of cases studies that the impacts of this crisis are absolutely devastating and as you mentioned it is not only impoverishment of poor countries which means beyond poverty certainly beyond what I studied in my book of “Globalization of poverty.” There you have a situation of total despair, it’s beyond, it’s poverty and despair, marginalization and morbidity and mortality that’s where the health crisis come in, as well.
Iv.Grouev: You’re right about despair and social collapse, especially in the poor south but if we look from another angle, this crisis was exceptionally lucrative business for some. Every 30 hours we have a new billionaire because of this pandemic. Forbes before pandemic wrote in 2021 reported 4 billion increase in (Bill) Gates worth, obviously involved in this kind of saga. Gates net worth across 2017 and 2018 increased to 4 billion dollars, so, working off a yearly wage 4 billion means Gates would earn $10,959,000 per day that’s $456,000 an hour or 7$,000 a minute $127 per second. So, we are going to live in a different environment as the result of this crisis of 2020. What are going to be the long-term repercussions from a political and economic point of view?
Chossudovsky: Well, I have documented these changes in the process of enrichment which occurred right from the beginning of this crisis, in fact starting in February 2020, and what this means first this process of enrichment which seems without bounds is a means for the financial establishment to literally control the nation state. They are also the creditors of the nation-state and immediately after March 11 lockdown which created, in fact destabilized economic activity but not only economic activity, the whole structures of civil society, as we understand — schools, universities, hospitals, sport events, cultures that was totally destabilized — and the creditors were in fact financing the safety nets, because for the government to endorse, to have the support of the broader population which is affected by this crisis, they had to have payments to unemployed workers to small and medium sizes enterprises that are on the verge of bankruptcy, to airlines which are inevitably bankrupt where they paid off the CEO’s of the airlines and so on. There’s a payment of which goes through the state and the nation-state and its whole fiscal structure now is controlled by creditors and these creditors are also, it is not strictly the IMF and the World Bank and so on. These are instruments of much more complex financial entities. There’s the Blackrock portfolio investment fund or Vanguard, they have a leverage in financial terms of the entire global economy, and what is suggested are the following. First of all the state what we used to call the welfare state is going to be wiped out totally, no more welfare state! That was a project, at least in the Western countries, let’s say developed countries, it was a post-world war to project the development of the welfare state. Based on Keynesians premises initially but with this crisis the welfare state is going to disappear and the whole state apparatus will be privatized. And then, of course what the financial establishment is pushing for, particularly the World Economic Forum. The World Economic Forum is a visible entity, the actual power structures are in the shadows, but what they are proposing essentially is the structure of global governance, and now global governance is essentially a construct of the financial elites. It was coined by the late David Rockefeller who said global governance is far more effective than the elected government that we have.
Iv.Grouev: Absolutely, this is really a fascinating prospect to see in reality how this “”Brave New World “is going to look like.
Chossudovsky: Well, it’s a totalitarian project.
Iv.Grouev: Of course, and I think again coming from the Canadian perspective, I think you remember this famous statement coming from our current prime minister who mentioned that an ideal manifestation of social order is coming from Asia, namely China, and if we look at it how the Chinese society is functioning these days this is probably not very consistent with the premises of the traditional liberal democracy in the West.
Chossudovsky: Well, I am not entirely, that was a statement made by Trudeau which I think was misleading and mistaken because he was saying that the Chinese have already a system of digital control over their citizens.
Iv.Grouev: Social credit?
Chossudovsky: Yeah, but the social credit in fact, what is unfolding is the contours of a global governance whereby the financial elites would be controlling but they will probably control it via their proxies, but to get back to the quotation of David Rockefeller, he said that global governance as he defined is the alliance between bankers and intellectuals, selected intellectuals of course! Because those intellectuals are there to give some justification to a process which is essentially that is impoverishing the whole population and enriching the smaller….…
Iv.Grouev: This is actually happening right now in Europe in the European Unions as a result of the military operation / war in Ukraine, correct?
Chossudovsky: Absolutely.
Iv.Grouev: I would like to add to our discussion, you’re absolutely right when you mentioned about selected intellectuals and selected media. I don’t know what selected media is these days… It’s essentially a censorship. What it does this “selected media”, to be quite honest, is a very distorted interpretation of what is happening in Ukraine. The narrative goes like that: everything started in February 2022 with the military operation, but in fact, this is not correct. We had a coup in 2014 and after this coup we had 14 000 Ukrainians citizens who have been slaughtered in Donetsk , Kramatorsk, Mariupol, in all these cities and the collective West was not very interested in discussing why the central government in Kiev (after the coup) was using air force, heavy artillery, tanks against the civilian population in Eastern Ukraine, very sizable, actually population – 6.8 million comparable to all Baltic states,(Latvia, Lithuania Estonia) and they were using their army against civilians for 8 years! How are we going to use this example, this current war in Ukraine when we talk about this “Brave New World” presented by selected intellectuals, selected media and selected narratives?
Chossudovsky: Well, I think that we must understand the Covid 19 agenda which as led to economic and social chaos at the world level is intimately related to the geopolitics of warfare in different regions of the world. And I am saying that the areas, the hot spot areas, of course, is the Eastern Europe and Ukraine at the moment on Russia’s border and that has been ongoing even before 2014. it’s NATO and the U.S NATO expansionism to the Russian border that’s one, the second hot spot in the South China sea in the Taiwan straits, it’s the continuous threat against China. The logic is very different to what’s happening of course in Eastern Europe, and then you have, of course, other areas of confrontation which are in the Middle East and specifically Iran is a target and North Korea is a target. The United States has been simulating their military actions in this various region of the world, and so in a sense the war in Ukraine has arrived in the wake of 2 years period of economics and social destabilization and it has also weakened every single country of the planet and it has indebted every single national economy in the planet and its government. What they are now seeking is a consensus which is directed against so called enemies of America which are: Russia and some of its allies but and of course also China, I recall the earlier war games in which were revealed that was several years ago where they had 4 countries which were: Russia, China, North Korea and Iran and they had war games of World War 3 addressed to those 4 countries. Now it’s a bit more complex in the real world, but the thing is that we are now in a situation where all means I said that the Covid mandates is a form of economic warfare, and that is part of the process of warfare since the down of mankind, except it is now taken on a different modality which we did not had in previous wars.
Iv.Grouev: Yeah, but you mentioned quite correctly Russia and China but keep in mind the world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Charles Krauthammer quite famously coined (the term) unipolarity , I think he added – ”unipolarity” and then ”moment”, moment is an instant, it is not going to last very long so this unipolarity obviously is an issue for the global hegemon simply because the competitors coming from obviously China and Russia are going to create a very different type of axis of power and the ”tension:” in Ukraine is par excellence (an effort) actually to postpone the creation of this multipolarity especially in the context of much more reassuring (as they call it regional power) Russia, and especially after the creation the BRICS and the Shanghai cooperation agreement.. I want to just add to this discussion a statement coming from a quite ”famous” scholar who predicted the ”End of the History” Fukuyama. Last year in the “Economist” (our viewers are perhaps familiar with this name who famously declared “End of history” and essentially (unipolarity) the only model based on the US interpretation of what liberal democracy is supposed to be!. So, in 2021 Francis Fukuyama said something very different, he said: ”United States it’s not likely to regain its earlier hegemonic status nor should it aspire to what it can hope is to sustain with like-minded countries world order friendly to democratic values, whether it can do this will depend on recovering(and then that’s interesting elaboration) sense of national identity and purpose at home.” Isn’t that the (same) language which the previous administration, the Trump administration, proclaimed being the main discourse, going back to the principle of sovereignty and not of the ”benevolent hegemony”. Do you think that this is what we are going to see perhaps in the very near future?
Chossudovsky: Well, listen, I think again Fukuyama is an instrument of propaganda because there’s very little and now that is individual..
Iv.Grouev: Selected individuals.
Chossudovsky: This is absolute nonsense what he says, because he is not doing any kind of analysis of the past configuration of the militarization of Western society and so on, so forth and of the contradictions okay. The contradictions are very important, but we are certainly at the crossroads of one of the most serious crises in the world history, but we have to understand the nature of the that crisis. We also have to understand that the possibility that this could lead to nuclear warfare, and I spent many years investigating the issue of nuclear warfare and I know that if you look at recent statements, the US government is saying that the nuclear war is winnable. And they also say that we now have nuclear weapons which are low yield and usable. Now, all this rhetoric because there is no such thing as a low yield. Well, a low yield nuclear weapon is three times Hiroshima as opposed to maybe a hundred times Hiroshima for the strategic nuclear weapons even the use of the low yield nuclear weapon is the avenue to World War 3 and it is the end of humanity. But the thing is that you have to analyze how this new nuclear doctrine of preemptive warfare was initiated in 2001. It was 2001, 2002 with a nuclear posture review and essentially, they started building a new doctrine which went against the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) which describe what a nuclear confrontation would result in, and then they said preemptive now, preemptive signifies defensive, it means self-defense. We are using nuclear weapons to defend ourselves and will say, well, you have this mini nuke up to 12 times the Hiroshima bomb and we change the label safe for civilians because explosion is underground quote, unquote. It is a bit like cigarettes, is good for your health you change the label and the dangers are that these concepts then enter into the military manuals they become tenants of US foreign policy and then you have a person like Hilary Clinton says: “Nuclear weapons are on the table” and then you will have somebody else now. The thing is that, very few of US politicians really understand the dangers of nuclear war and they are actually prepared to use nuclear weapons against Russia which has similar capacities, in fact in some cases even more sophisticated. Then, what they have and this is the end of humanity now Fukuyama is a load of bull…. from my standpoint and he is there to sustain some kind of ideological perspective of what is really happening but he does not analyze what is really happening, he does not look at and how policy errors could lead..
Iv.Grouev: He is just an organic intellectual as Antonio Gramsci famously said in his “Prison Notebooks”. He supposes to sell certain concepts…. But you are absolutely right about this new discussion about preemption, and I think it was in 2002 in the National Strategy in the United States when they put it as one of the 4 cardinal principles: The first one is a unilateral approach. The second one is preemption, and this is what they have done in Iraq, if you remember in 2003 before finding any weapons of mass destruction. We have to preemptively attack him (Saddam Hussein) but going forward 20 years in 2022. We have a major crisis in Europe, and it involves one the superpowers, namely the Russian federation and yesterday we had a meeting in Madrid by the NATO member states and I am going to just read, they have 22 points of their kind of declaration at the very end of this meeting, but number 4 is particularly interesting and I would like to have you take on this point. This is what they say: ”We warmly welcome president Zelenski participation in this summit, we stand in fully solidarity with the government and the people of Ukraine meaning one position in this kind of conflict in the heroic defense of their country, we reiterate our unwavering support for Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity within its internationally recognized borders extending to, its territorial waters, (what does it mean Crimea is going to be an open question for NATO) we fully support Ukraine’s inherent right to self-defense and to choose it own security arrangement, we welcome effort to all allies engaged in providing support to Ukraine, we will assist them adequately , recognizing their specific situation. This language suggests, in my humble opinion, the firm position of NATO to be actually participant in this conflict, what does it mean?
Chossudovsky: Well, it is not entirely clear as to what decisions were taken but they certainly have opened the door for the participation of members NATO inside, within this war, which was not previously, with support through weapons deliveries and advisory functions and so the fourth facto NATO is already in the war theater but if they start to, if they enter formerly as a part of a NATO operation. Well, the logic then becomes entirely different because in that case they would be directly targeting the Russian federation.
Iv.Grouev: But, according to the National Security Strategy of the Russian federation they also have the same principle of preemption, and this preemption is when we are entitled to use nuclear weapons in case the survival of the Russian state is in danger. So here, the key point coming from the declaration of NATO meeting is when they say :”Allied leaders agree on fundamental shift in NATO’s deterrence and defense with strengthening towards defenses enhanced battle groups in eastern part of the alliance and an increase of the number of higher readiness forces to well over 300 000” . So we are going to see escalation, or we are going to see de-escalation of this crisis, according to you…
Chossudovsky: I think that what the logic of NATO which is ultimately controlled by Washington by the Pentagon is to incite NATO member states to mobilize their conventional war abilities in other words, I don’t think that at this stage they are talking about nuclear war but they have said they are expanding their military capabilities and they also announced in fact even before the Madrid’s meeting that Britain was going to become involved with the deployment of British armed forces within the European space. Now, I think it’s too early to reach any kind of conclusion as to what is going to happen, but this statement obviously is very far reaching, the question is also not so much, the debate which might occur within the European Union but the debate which might occur within the US Congress as to whether they will go along with this. But bear in mind that the history of US sponsored wars has always consisted in promoting their allies to do the dirty work for them, and they have dome systematically to keep a sort of to not necessarily…
Iv.Grouev: During the First World War and the Second World War….
Chossudovsky: Well, second world war, that’s very complex but the US was behind Nazi, Germany. The economic support, the fact that without the United States they would never be able to conduct operation Barbarossa because they needed oil and the oil came from Standard Oil of New Jersey, primarily there was some oil in Romania etc… But it was essentially delivery of oil which enabled the armed forces.
Iv.Grouev: There is a famous quote by Harry Truman when you mentioned operation Barbarossa, he said: “Look if we see Germany winning, then we have to support Russia. if we see Russia, winning then we have to support Germany.” So, this is (their) strategic point of view. Obviously United States is very much keen in keeping its position.
Chossudovsky: But, Harry Truman did not actually understand what was actually ongoing because on the 15th of September 1945, the war department f the United states issued a secret plan which had already been worked on years before under the Manhattan project which is consisted bombing 66 urban areas of the Soviet Union with more than 200 atomic bombs, so that happened less than two weeks after the end of World War II, when both countries United States and Russia were at that stage of the Soviet Union were allies that they already had a plan to destroy the Soviet Union in the immediate wake of the World War II.
Iv.Grouev: Yeah, you are absolutely correct, I would like to add to your statement that actually Churchill was also very keen in expanding the list to, if I am not mistaken, to 220 sites to be (precise), but they did not have the capacity ….
Chossudovsky: Well Winston Churchill was proposing, I think it was in April 1945 he has a proposal to go after the Soviet troops in Germany, and that plan was immediately abandoned because it was unfeasible but it was discussed at the highest levels. What Winston Churchill did not comprehend is that the Second World war was also a war against the British Empire, and it was the British empire completely very ….
Iv.Grouev: I am very happy that you mentioned that because it was just months after that when Harry Truman declared the so-called Truman doctrine, he mentioned the issue of Greece and Turkey. Well, he said to the world – you know the Brits are bankrupt they don’t have money, and you know they have to say goodbye to their British Empire and by the way, we, the United States we are the only country capable of providing intelligence, financial support and capital to these regimes in Turkey and in Greece. And number 3, – security of Turkey, Greece and everywhere in the world is going to be linked directly to the security of the United States. Therefore, just months after the end of the war, he just declared publicly the ”Dead Sentence” of the British empire which was the purpose of the…
Chossudovsky: Absolutely, and I mean there was another element it was the whole dynamics of the Marshall plan and the Bretton Woods institutions and in fact the whole Marshall plan was precisely to create a credit better relationship with the countries which were the object of World War II, including of course Germany, Italy and so on, and it was called reconstruction but in effect was ultimately to instate the dollar, the nominated economy and the mechanism of debt which were imposed in the wake of World War II. So, I think in a sense, World War II was a means to destroy what was previously called the Prussian empire but it was also a means to destroy the British Empire and all the other empires. The Italians, well, all the European countries and, of course Japan, which had an imperial project and that was the avenue to this unipolar world. It was the destabilization of the Spanish empire which came much earlier, of course, to a third Reich and the only remaining power which confronted the United States or at least was the Soviet Union ultimately. The whole post war years were built around destabilizing this and then ultimately then taking control of various parts of its zone of influence not strictly in Eastern Europe but also within what was the Soviet Union I mean the various republics many of which of course are now allies of the West and several are member of NATO. So I think what its unfolding it is being implemented by installing worldwide proxy regimes and you will have proxy regimes in countries like, Japan which are big. US orders European union but let’s say, let’s take the powerful countries of the world okay, but certainly Germany, France, Italy, Japan, Brazil, all of these countries are actually controlled through a very, it’s not a straightforward process but they have either been the victims of regime change or they have installed proxy regimes and so on, and the irony is that, in many cases the US will use so-called leftist groups.
Iv.Grouev: To go back to the British empire and its former prime Minister Churchill. I think I actually like his quote, I think it was in 1946 or something like when he said : “Future empires are going to be the empires of the mind”, the “empires of the mind”? so essentially if you control the superstructure if you control the realm of ideas, you know that it will be very easy to manipulate, to control societies these days (unfortunately for someone like myself when I was very young, I was a journalist). The media failed civil societies and in general, journalists are supposed to be the “healers” of society, they have to identify the problems, they have to offer solutions if they find the right source of expertise, of course. But the media these days is heavily censored, I don’t know what the solutions to this climate of 24/7 propaganda might be, which essentially is making particularly young minds very reluctant to use their independent and critical thinking. What might be your take about that?
Chossudovsky: It’s very clear that the so-called mainstream media are dominated by a handful of large corporations worldwide they’re very much related to the financial establishment to the military-industrial complex. And it is clear they have now become an instrument of propaganda and that’s instrument of propaganda is there to enforce the lies of the government and also the lies of the pharmaceutical companies and so on, so forth. They are very powerful structures but it’s clear that without the mainstream media’s propaganda apparatus their agenda would collapse like a deck of cards. In other words we have statements which are made by the governments to justify their mandates, their covid vaccine mandate for instance knowing that the vaccine is resulting in mortality and morbidity worldwide and we have official data to support that statement but the media will always present something else. And I think of course, the main issues is to dispel the lie where in a sense we are in a inquisitorial environment it not quite the Spanish inquisition, which lasted 300 years of the French inquisition but it is a society where lies become the truth and once the lies becomes the truth it is very difficult to move backwards. So that essentially, we have to block this media propaganda and I can say that is no easy task because independent media is not necessarily what you’re doing with global research.
Iv.Grouev: Some of my students would like to be little bit more well informed and to have a balanced understanding about whatever, we may call or frame, as reality, what you may suggest to these young minds?
Chossudovsky: Well, I think that we have to build a grassroots movement, it’s not simply a question of pundits and authors and scientists making statements, we have to build a consensus which confronts the media and governmental lies, and we have to have an understanding of the workings of this crisis, we have to understand how the establishment controls the institutions of civil society how they manipulate. It said that the truth is a powerful weapon or instrument in its own right but to undertake the formation of a vast social movement at the grassroots level we have to break down the divisions within respective societies and we are not dealing with a left-right, we are not dealing with political parties there, we have to build a movement which encompasses all sectors of society and we are not necessarily looking at labor rights, we are there also to establish links between small and medium-sized enterprises member of the military at the grassroots level public sector employees, decision makers, scientists intellectuals, air pilots and university professors and students
Iv.Grouev: So essentially nothing new – it should be organic, and it should be bottom-up social….
Chossudovsky: Well, but the problem is that if you look at social movements and the landscape of social movements today, most of them are funded by Rockefellers and Soros and out.
Iv.Grouev: They have been co-opted obviously…
Chossudovsky: And then we have prominent leftist intellectuals which will say, which will make statements to the fact that NATO is making the right decision, I won’t get into the details, but we have to build cohesive movement which integrates different areas of civil society and it’s across the land.
Iv.Grouev: But again, it comes with the understanding, you have to identify the problem, you have to have the right sources of information and obviously mainstream media is not the right choice, so what might be the solution?
Chossudovsky: Well, this is a very difficult question because you have an anti-war movement which endorses the Covid narrative, you have political scientist which an economist that do not understand the logic of the lockdown and other words , if we are to reveal the truth as a means of establishing a grassroots resistance , I would say to simplify matters we have, to first of all repeal the covid narrative it’s a lie and it’s the most serious lie in world history and we have all the documents to prove that it’s a lie.
There is no pandemic! I have spent 2 years working on that, and there is no pandemic and the reason there is no pandemic is that they use the PCR test and the PCR test does not identify the virus and it does not distinguish between Covid 19 and other infections. So, there is no pandemic and the definition of the Covid 19 as an infection is not a threatening disease, we have to, I don’t want to get into the complexities of that but that’s very important.
Secondly, the vaccine is a biological weapon, it is a crime against humanity and we have ample evidence that this vaccine has resulted in an upward movement of mortality and morbidity right from the inception, we have confidential documents of Pfizer which corroborate the fact their data is resulting in injuries and mortality, and when it’s applied worldwide, we are talking about genocide being refuted, but they havebe carefully documented. And if I have to say that Covid mandates, including the lockdowns, the confinements as well as the vaccine are invalid totally invalid, there is proof of that and there is proof that the decision makers are applying something which contrary to the welfare state is in in fact resulting in a process which some people call genocide, and I think that is a correct statement we have to look at the various facets of that lockdown triggers the collapse of the global economy. and ultimately diversified in the state system. And the vaccine is another instrument, which is presented as a solution to the crisis when in fact, it is not a solution at all, it simply leads to a wave of mortality and morbidity and then the 3rd element is, understanding war warfare and the fact that what is happening in Ukraine is leading us to the possibility of a World War III scenario, despite the fact that at the very early period of this crisis in the month of April there were preliminary peace negotiations which were held in Istanbul under the auspices of the Turkish government and there was an agreement and then there was sabotage of those peace negotiations, so that is very important to build a consensus regarding the need for peace negotiations particularly in view of the fact that militarily the Russians have won this war and all the analysts accept that . But what we have now seen following the NATO summit in Madrid is a situation where they want to go one step further in the process of escalation and then as you pointed out, it is also the collapse of international diplomacy of interchange between nation states are literally controlled by powerful financial interests either through bribes and payoff’s and so on but ultimately also the grassroots in these individuals countries must take control of their governments and reinstate a workable system of democracy, which is based on sovereignty and that also means taking very drastic measures. I think the debt must be dismissed as a criminal undertaking, those debts have to be wiped out..
Iv.Grouev: I think probably the most valuable concluding remark is to have regain sovereignty, absolutely. Thank you so much for this wonderful discussion and thank you for your time and your hospitality.
Chossudovsky: Thank you.
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For comprehensive reading on the worldwide corona crisis and the engineered economic depression, below is link to Prof. Michel Chossudovsky’s e-Book:
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