This denial by the Bandera nazi [sic] extremists and the illegitimate power in Kiev of a basic human rights for a huge percentage of the population runs contrary to international law and the European Convention of Human Rights to which Ukraine is a signatory.
According to the United Nations General Assembly Declaration of Principles of International Law and under the terms of the United Nations Charter, effectively the Russia population have a right to secede from Ukraine. In an interview with the Voice of Russia Harvard Professor Francis Boyle says that there is no real government in Ukraine right now, and called it a gang of neo-Nazis, fascists and rightist thugs. There is clear cut discrimination against Russians in Ukraine with public demands in Kiev that Russians be killed. According to Professor Boyle what happened in Kiev was a playbook coup d’état by the CIA. Victoria Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, working with the US Ambassador, were instrumental in carrying out the coup d’état, as it has been proven they were working with “the brown shirts”: Svoboda, the right sector, the Bandera Nazis and skinheads .
This is John Robles, you are listening to an interview with Professor Francis Boyle. He is a Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign in Illinois.
Robles: Hello, sir.
Boyle: Hi, John, how are you doing? My best to your listening audience.
Robles: And thanks for agreeing to speak with me. I’m doing well by the way. You’ve made several comments and you‘ve written several very hard-hitting pieces regarding the rights of people to secede. In this case we are speaking about Ukraine and the Russian speaking population which is a very large percentage of the population in that country. Can you give us some details on that and your views on what is going on in Ukraine right now, please?
Boyle: Right, John. Well,let me just look at it to start out as a legal matter. What you had here, as you know, was this rump Ukrainian Parliament voted to terminate Russian as one of the official languages of Ukraine and you have, I would say, maybe a 30% or more of the population are native Russian speakers.
Now the problem with this is that it does provide, or at least start to provide, grounds for secession under international law. I’m not saying here I’m asking for secession, although I do note there are now people in the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine especially in Crimea and Sevastopol asking for secession.
So the test for secession, and let me read it here for you, taken from the United Nations General Assembly Declaration of Principles of International Law under the terms of the United Nation’s Charter, and it’s set forth in a paragraph which I sent to you, effectively what it says is that if a government, and here in Ukraine right now there is no government, there is just a gang of neo-Nazis, fascists, rightist thugs and whatever in charge of Kiev
But if a government does not quote: “conduct themselves in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples and possess a government representing the whole people, belonging to the territory without distinction as to race, creed or color”, then that provides grounds for secession.
And here you have the Russians being stripped of their language, so it’s clear cut discrimination here against Russians. You are hearing public demands in Kiev that Russians be killed, and things of this nature.
So I’m not saying that I’m supporting secession, but this is very dangerous what the rabble in charge of Kiev have done here in stripping the Russian speakers of their native language, and as we know the capability to speak a language goes to the very heart of any people, no matter who they are.
And this is a serious issue between the First and Second World War, when you had collapse of all these empires and the arbitrary creation of nation states, and speakers of one language put in, as a minority in another state.
So it is a very dangerous step they have taken here. As you know they have also outlawed the Communist Party – that is serious. I don’t think legally it is as serious as stripping Russian speakers of their language, in dealing with the state. But even there, Ukraine is a party to the European Convention of Human Rights.
There is a right of association, and political association, and to establish political parties. I’m not a Communist myself, I’m a political independent, but they certainly have a right to have a Communist Party if they want to, and today we just saw that the leader of the Communist Party in Kiev – they burned his home down. So, we have a chance that Russians and Communists and Jews should be killed over there. So it’s a very bad sign for maintaining the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
Now so far, I think Foreign Minister Lavrov has taken the correct position, that is: ‘we are not going to interfere in the domestic affairs of Ukraine’, which is correct under international law. But he said ‘others should not do the same either’, but unfortunately, as we know, the United States and Germany, at a minimum, are over there interfering in the domestic affairs of Ukraine.
So, it is a very difficult, dangerous situation. I think the thugs ruling there in Kiev right now are playing with fire.
Robles: Now you mentioned some things that are very alarming, and they have been alarming for many Russian officials. I’d like your comment, if you could, first off: Russia’s Human Rights Ombudsman, he said that this was a violation. Let me pull up the quote here, he said: ‘the attack on the Russian language in Ukraine is a blatant violation of the rights of the ethnic minority;it is against the principal of the rule of law’. That was stated by Konstantin Dolgov today. The figures that we have …
Boyle: He is correct, he is certainly correct, and I’m suggesting it’s far more serious than that – in that it provides a legal basis for the Russian speakers in the Russian areas of Ukraine to declare secession,if that’s what they want to do.
So it’s even far more serious than your minister there is pointing out, there was far more grave, serious violation of their basic human rights. Yes, but I agree with what he is said, yes.
Just a reminder you are listening to an interview with Professor Francis Boyle.
Robles: You mentioned death threats against Russians and Jews. Can you tell us about a little bit about those? And how is it possible that the West is continuing to support these people, these thugs that have basically just occupied all the houses of government?
Boyle: But, the United States’ government has been overthrowing democratically elected governments since the Mosaddegh Government in Iran and putting the Shah of Iran in power – that was Kermit Roosevelt – and even as he publicly bragged about it in his book Countercoup, and even have a manual in circulation there at the CIA based on this, on how you overthrow governments.
So it seems to me this was a playbook coup d’état by the CIA. Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, working with the US Ambassador, we now have the tape on that. So this is a classic coup d’état, and working with what I can call ‘the brown shirts’ over there: Svoboda, the right sector, the Bandera people, skinheads– they list these types of people they want.
So that is people that they were working with to overthrow ademocratically elected government, and basically shred the Constitution. They are paying no attention at all to any constitutional arrangement there. And as we know, as of today, Tuesday evening my time, they still don’t have a government in Kiev, they can’t agree on one.
So, it does appear the Americans favor putting Tymoshenko back in power, because you had that very famous picture of her with Ambassador Pyatt, that was clearly a symbol that she is the American favorite. But I think the neo-Nazis, and the fascists, right sector don’t even want her.
So I don’t know how all this is going to shake out. And in the meantime, it is extremely dangerous in Kiev and the non-Russian speaking parts for Communists, Jews,Russian speakers. We will have to see what happens, I really don’t know.
Robles: Couple of other things here now. Klitschko said, earlier today Moscow time, that he wanted to run for president. Then we have Yarosh, he is the leader of the nationalists who have been training in western Ukraine for about a decade to carry all this out – he wants to be the president – he wants to lead the country. And it would be something unbelievable in modern times, something like a Nazi regime is what he wants to bring about. People call him “The Führer”.
Also, Jewish leaders have called for Jews to leave Kiev, and possibly leave the country. Was the US aware of all this? I find that hard to believe they were that ignorant what they were unleashing.
Boyle: I’m sure they knew exactly what they were doing. Look, the United States government works with anyone they need to work with, to accomplish their objectives, as you see in Syria-they are working with Muslim extremist terrorist groups to overthrow the Assad government in Syria – I’m not saying he is democratically elected.
They did the same thing in Libya to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi – I’m not saying he was democratically elected. So it doesn’t really matter, whatever gets the job done- they will do.
So in Ukraine they decided to work with the neo-Nazis, fascists, right sector, Bandera people, those who trace their origins back to the German invasion of Ukraine and exterminating millions of Ukrainians, including maybe 2 million Jews, we don’t even know the exact number.
Nuland made it clear in that conversation that she does not support Klitschko, and she called him Klits, he is basically a creation of the German government, and Yatsenyuk, he is in there, and Svoboda- they don’t support them, they are too far right.
But they made it clear they support Tymoshenko. She is their errand girl, and they want her in power. They figure she is the best ‘face’, but as Nuland said: she should be talking to Klitschko and the head of Svoboda there, was it four times a week? Or something like that.
Robles: Yeah, four times a week she said.
Boyle: So, that is what the Americans want. Whether they’ll get it, I don’t know.
Robles: There’s one problem – that is not what the Ukrainian people want. I mean, when Tymoshenko was rolled out, most of the people were not that happy to see her.
So, I mean, sure that’s somebody the US wants, but how they are going to put her in power if the Ukrainian people don’t want her?
Boyle: Well I agree with you, but this is a coup d’état. I mean, the Iranian people didnot want the Shah of Iran either, but that is what they got. The Americans working with the rabble over there, and the brown shirts in Iran, they, against the wishes of the Iranian people, put the Shah in power and he stayed there from 1953 until 1979.
So if it doesn’t appear she is going to work, the Americans willplay a little around and find someone else who does work, and is more acceptable. I can’t say, John.
But the Americans want their person in power, in Kiev, and if it is not Tymoshenko, then maybe they will go with Klitschko first -who knows? If that doesn’t work out they could even go with Svoboda, and try to rehabilitate Svoboda. I can’t say. I’m still trying to figure this out now.
Robles: Yeah, we are talking about this matter-of-factly, like we are discussing like the choosing of a team, but what we are talking about here is completely illegal under international law, isn’t it? You can’t install governments at will no matter who you are.
Boyle: Well, that is correct. It is clearlyillegal, we discussed this before – it’s condemned by the World Court and the Nicaragua decision,when the Reagan Administration tried to overthrow theSandinistagovernment in Nicaragua, and they were not democratically elected at all, but the United States government has been doing this starting with the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran, then Guatemala, and moving on from there, I mean, I can’t recall the exact number of governments they’ve overthrown.
Robles: Over 70.
Boyle: Yeah, Bill Blum has a book called ‘Killing Hope’.
Robles: Yeah, I read it, I know Bill, I know Bill. I think 77 he said.
Boyle: He has got the exact number and the circumstances – all in his book “Killing Hope”. And Bill used to work for the State Department, and resigned in protest over the Vietnam War. He is a very solid person.
Robles: Yeah, I’ve interviewed him several times.Professor Boyle, we are out of time. I really appreciate it, if maybe if you could in less in a minute if you could give us your prediction and your advice for all the players in this.
Boyle: Oh, John, I mean, we did discuss this the last time, and at this point I really don’t know what to say. All I can say is that Foreign Minister Lavrov has so far – I’ve commended him before – I think he is an outstanding diplomat and representative of the Russian Federation and far superior to Secretary of State Clinton and Secretary of State Kerry, but he has taken the principle position under international law, that Russia is not going to interfere in Ukraine’s domestic affairs. And that is a correct position to take.
Now, beyond that, I would not know how to advise the Russian government right now what to do. I think president Putin and his National Security Council, as you know they met last week, are trying to sort all this out. You know, it could be, President Putin might decide to try to stabilize the situation in Ukraine. He might decide that he doesn’t really want a civil war in Ukraine right on the borders with Russia.
So those, very well, might be his calculations, and I certainly would not disagree with those conclusions if that was what he and his National Security Council were to decide. I think if there were to be a civil war in Ukraine it would make what happened in Yugoslavia child’s play. So, that might be the way President Putin is seeing things now as we speak.
John Robles with Professor Francis Boyle. Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois.